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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999_03_18 Board of Architectural Review Minutes AMENDED MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE BOARD OF ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW OF THE TOWN OF MAMARONECK MARCH 18, 1999, IN THE SENIOR CENTER, TOWN CENTER 740 WEST BOSTON POST ROAD, MAMARONECK, NEW YORK Present: Edward Z. Jacobson, Chairman "11 � Sue Ellen Commender fi 4 Robert M. Immerman Anthony Spagnola RECEIVED Pamela T. Washington JUN' 1 1999 t E. Robert Wassman PATRICIA A MOGC10 �7 TOWN CLERK MAtACK 40, Also Present: Ronald A. Carpaneto, Director of Building N.Y.N.Y. trasx0 CALL TO ORDER The meeting was called to order by Chairman Jacobson at 8:03 p.m. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Mr. Jacobson asked if there were any additions or corrections to the January 12, 1999 Minutes. After some discussion and corrections made, on a motion made by Ms. Washington and seconded, the Amended Minutes of the January 21, 1999 meeting as corrected were unanimously approved. Mr. Jacobson asked if there were any additions or corrections to the February 18, 1999 Minutes. After some discussion and corrections made, on a motion made by Mr. Spagnola and seconded, the Amended Minutes of the February 18, 1999 meeting as corrected were unanimously approved. Mr. Jacobson said he read through the Minutes of the last meeting and wanted to call the Board's attention to something in the Sign Ordinance which deals with the issue of continuity of color, etc. This has to do with the issue of the red signage for the New York Sports Clubs. He read in the Minutes that there were concerns about the impact of a red sign in a residential area, etc. The Ordinance states, "the use of sharply contrasting colors may be prohibited if inconsistent with the character of the sign and its surrounding. Signs on the same building should be similar in color, size, shape and location." In the previous paragraph it states, "groups of related signs should express uniformity and create a sense of harmonious appearance." Mr. Jacobson would like the Board's reaction to this issue of the intent of the Sign Ordinance, as he believes the Board has accepted the use of the red sign without full consideration of the Ordinance. In light of what the Sign Ordinance states, he would like some discussion regarding this issue. Mr. Immerman said this is an issue that was dealt with at the last meeting, and it should not be reopened. Mr. Jacobson said he is raising this issue because he is really concerned about the consequences of the ruling, and because the Sign Ordinance is attempting to make a clear point. Mr. Immerman said he doesn't think it is an issue. Mr. Jacobson asked how the rest of the Board feels about this issue. Ms. Commender said she feels it was missed. She pointed out that the other signs were black. Mr. Jacobson said in line with the Sign Ordinance one would have to consider black signage, as the Sign Ordinance seems to indicate the direction of continuity of color. Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 2 A discussion ensued regarding this matter and the two other existing signs. Mr. Spagnola said when this issue was raised to him,he wanted to reconsider his opinion on whether these new signs should be red on the building. He thinks the Board should discuss it. Mr.Jacobson said if this Board decides a change of recommendation is necessary, the Board would do that. Mr. Jacobson would like to get the consensus of this Board and then have a vote as to what action should be taken. He said he does feel that continuity of the color of the signage at this location is an important issue. At some point in time, hopefully the Board will have an opportunity to review new signage for the other tenants, to make some improvements there. If the New York Sports Club signs were to end up in red, Mr. Jacobson said the Board would want to continue that direction when the other signs change. Ms. Washington said she feels the building would be more elegant if the new sign is a dark color. Mr. Spagnola said he agrees. There are ways it can be achieved. The sign could still have black letters that are at night haloed around the edges in white light. Mr. Spagnola said they can still have an internally illuminated sign that is not glowing and not what they would be if they were in red and bright. This might be better in the residential area if they were solid black letters that glowed around the edges, as it would not be as harsh a sign. They could still maintain the typeface of the health club and interpret that logo as solid black letters that are pinned up, are lit and glow from the edge. That solves two problems for Mr. Spagnola, (1)is that it will be more subtle on the building, it can still maintain the scale of the letters in that it is not as jarring to the facade on both sides. It won't be as bright and varied at night, there won't be the issue the Board has had in the past about night signs in a residential area. In black, it might blend in to what might be considered continuity. At least they will not stand out as strongly on the building,which Mr. Spagnola thinks is unnecessary to do,as long as the sign can be read from the highway and the road. One will be able to read them at night, because they will be glowing in a subtle way as in the internally lit sign. Mr. Jacobson asked if Mr. Spagnola would make a motion, as the Board might want to offer the opportunity that it not be specifically mandated that they be black letters which are illuminated from behind, but they have the option of doing something with black letters. A discussion ensued regarding this issue between Board members. Ms. Washington said the letters that are bounded by a contrasting color, like approved for Mrs. Green's Natural Market, are very unsuccessful. She finds that sign very hard to read. She feels a solid color, more than a bordered letter, is a lot simpler. Mr. Spagnola agrees. Mr. Jacobson said his only concern is that he does not want the Board to design the sign for New York Sports Clubs. Mr. Immerman said he thinks, (1) this is the tail wagging the dog, (2) the Board had an opportunity to have this discussion last meeting, the Board talked about the brightness of the red, they agreed to tone it down and he doesn't think it is fair to reopen the whole issue. He has no problem with the way it was and he doesn't see any reason to try to make the new sign consistent with the two inconsistent signs of the two little stores on the corner. Mr. Immerman said that he heard everything everybody said. He said Mr. Jacobson was not at that meeting, and had he been, he would have said the same thing. Mr. Jacobson said he thought it was important to raise it, because he thinks it is in violation of the spirit of the Sign Ordinance. He said his only reluctance is to try to design the sign for the applicant to mandate something. He thinks the real issue the Board wants to deal with is that it be consistent in its color with the other signs. He would like that the applicant design it themselves to relate to what exists, rather than Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 3 the Board mandate. Hopefully, they will come back with what has been suggested, and thinks the Board should mandate that the color of the signage be black or a combination of black and white. Mr. Jacobson asked that the Board make a motion changing its recommendation. On a motion made by Mr. Spagnola, seconded by Ms. Commender, the following resolution was ADOPTED, 3 in favor, 2 opposed: WHEREAS, New York Sports Club have submitted an application to the Building Inspector, together with plans to install one new illuminated logo and letters/side wall, exposure to I-95 exit and remove existing 3 ft. by 37 ft. illuminated box sign and replace with illuminated logo and letters; and WHEREAS, the Building Inspector has declined to issue such permit on the grounds that the review by the Board of Architectural Review is required; and WHEREAS, New York Sports Club submitted an application for approval to the Board; and WHEREAS, this Board has examined the plans, inspected the site, reviewed the application and has heard all persons interested in this application; and NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the subject application be and the same is GRANTED,subject to the following conditions: 1. New York Sports Club reexamine the two signs that are located on the front and side facade of the building. 2. The scale of the two signs, which was approved at the last meeting, be kept at that scale. 3. Reexamine the material and colors used to manufacture these two signs and limit the pallet to black and white to be consistent with colors that are currently on the building. 4. Present this idea or ideas on how these signs might look at the next meeting. A discussion ensued regarding the colors to be used for the signage. Mr. Jacobson said as this is business that occurred at the last meeting, he asked the sign individuals that were present to make the applicant aware of the Board's discussion and decision on the above matter. Chairman Jacobson said that the following applicant was not present: COUGHLIN GROUP, INC./John M. Coughlin- 178 Myrtle Boulevard-Block 133 Lot 627.2-sign (adjourned 1/21/99;2/18/99) Mr. Jacobson read the next application as follows: NEW YORK SPORTS CLUBS/Anthony Fodera - 13-19 Madison Avenue -Block 132 Lot 469-sign (adjourned 2/18/99 Mr.Fodera, the representative from New York Sports Clubs, said he understands what the Board is trying to accomplish as far as having the signs conform and thinks it is a good idea. In this particular situation, the two signs that are there are black and white or bronze and white, as you can't tell on the photo, and are conforming together. They are a different color from the Sports Club. New York Sports Club is the anchor store which occupies about 80% of the property, and is the drawing point to the other two stores. He asked the Board's opinion if the other two signs were changed to red to conform to New York Sports Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 4 Clubs, as he doesn't feel it would be that big an expense. He would inform New York Sports Club to make two signs for the neighboring tenants. Mr. Jacobson said the issue is how does the Board feel about having all the signs red. Mr. Immerman said the bright red issue was raised at the last meeting, and they agreed there was a method by which they would toned it down. If it is consistently red, that would satisfy everybody. Mr. Spagnola said it would be a nice gesture to the community if New York Sports Clubs would consider that. It would certainly improve the piece of property. Mr. Fodera said New York Sports Clubs had another store in Stamford, Connecticut with a similar situation that they accommodated, and that he is knows New York Sports Clubs will accommodate the other two stores in this instance. The Board felt that would be an excellent idea. Mr. Jacobson said the Board has heard an excellent suggestion and asked that the directory sign now be addressed and then the Board will formalize the suggestions made afterward. Mr. Immerman recommended formalizing it now, before continuing with the directory application. Mr. Jacobson said that the Board accepts Mr. Fodera's recommendations that new signs be fabricated for the other tenants and be consistent in the color red. Ms. Washington questioned the spelling on the directory sign of Jays and said it needs an apostrophe between the y and s. Ms. Washington asked if the two companies, Jays Wine and Liquors and Tennyson Cleaners, have logos of their own on the sign. Mr. Fodera said no. Ms. Washington asked if Mr. Fodera is proposing a shopping center directory sign where the typeface for each tenant is the same. Mr. Fodera said they are all helvetica letter style, but New York Sports Clubs sign has upper and lower case versus all capitals. Ms. Spagnola said the pole remains and there is an illuminated box hanging off the cross pole. It's a rectangular box and will be thick enough to contain the bulbs. Mr. Spagnola asked if it has to be illuminated that way. Ms. Washington asked if it can be a wooden sign with direct lighting over it, as opposed to a flat wooden sign with illumination from the ground. Mr. Fodera said no, he has to put a florescent fixture over the top on two sides. Mr. Jacobson said the reason for this discussion is that the 10 in. thick box will overwhelm the pole. Ms. Washington said it probably is a hazard on a windy night and that she is missing the old fashioned lettering. Mr. Spagnola asked if the Board agrees with the problem of the thickness of the box. He said the Board would like to have the owner entertain the idea of something that is externally illuminated, if it is illuminated at all. Mr. Spagnola said the pole and the shape is not all that bad, and with some nice external lighting detail coming off the side panel it could be very nice. It will have a little bit of character to it, and won't look so heavy handed to have a big thick 10 in. box hanging off the pole. Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 5 Mr.Fodera said under the section of the code that deals with colors and contrast, it says, (#7) "illumination should be appropriate to the character of the sign and surroundings." A discussion ensued regarding the signage and external fixtures. Ms. Washington said if the letters on the side are not very big, one would have to be close to it to read it anyway. It is close to the highway, the streets are next to it and it is not setback on the property. It is 100 ft. closer to the street than the building. Mr. Spagnola likes the idea of the sign all white on the pole. He said if the letters were all red on the white field and red letters were put on the facade, it would be very nice. It would look much better and have more life to it, as what currently exists looks boring. Mr. Spagnola said the size of the panel as it stands is quite nice. It is very proportionate. Mr. Jacobson went back to the rational for this directory. In the last meeting's minutes the statement was made that because this building sets back and is blocked by the restaurant on the left, it is necessary to let one know it's there. Mr. Jacobson said it is a small directory. Vehicles coming down Myrtle Boulevard and making the turn can't read the sign until they are close enough to it. He asked if the applicant really need this? Mr. Fodera said if the sign is made all red it will be helpful when coming around the curve, because you are traveling at a slower speed. Mr. Jacobson said the information submitted is so small scaled that it can't be read until one is close to it. Mr. Fodera said he understands what the Board is saying about having small lettering for each store, but for the many years he has been in business this is what landlords and property owners want. To have a directory on a shopping center to clarify themselves and give the shopping center a badge on the side which says it is a qualified place to shop. Mr. Jacobson said that is fair. Ms. Washington said the with length of the yard arm across the top it would be possible to make the sign itself physically slightly wider and slightly taller, to arrange the lettering on the sign so that the words could all show up more. The existing arm is significantly longer than the sign. The sign could be 15% wider, Larchmont Shopping Center could each be on a line, then the Sports Club logo, and get more of the words on. She suggested using a Palatino as used on the Town of Mamaroneck sign. She said that is a little more like the New York Sports Clubs logo lettering. That fits in with the old fashion arm and the pediment at the top of the sign. It would be a way to make it kind of light, lettered white and bigger so the words can be read. She doesn't think making it scrunched together helvetica lettering will do it. Mr. Spagnola agreed, at which time a discussion ensued regarding the size of the sign, the signage itself and the typeface to be used. Ms. Washington asked how Staples got permission for their signage. Mr. Carpaneto said Staples got permission for their signage by requesting a variance. Ms. Washington said the applicant can ask for a variance, and the Board at that time can make a recommendation. Mr. Fodera said the code states that, "the Board of Architect Review may allow a directory sign for a shopping center in an area no more than 8 sq. ft. per tenant with the center or anchor stores area not to exceed twenty (20) square feet." Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 6 Mr. Spagnola said it has been a good discussion because the directory sign will look better, will be externally illuminated and we can improve on the topography. Mr. Immerman made an alternative suggestion on the topography,with deference to the red. The helvetica was chosen because of the New York Sports Clubs logo. The problem with the way it is presented makes them all look different. He suggested making it a narrower stroke, make them all consistent and he can still have a more elegant sign. Mr. Spagnola said he thinks that is a style issue, and the typography needs to be more consistent. Is it his understanding that New York Sports Clubs should or needs to be bigger than the other tenants. Mr. Fedora reiterated what the code states. Mr. Spagnola said he does not have a problem if this is the case. Ms. Commender said that she thought that the code read that the size of all the tenants' signage should be the same. Mr. Spagnola said the size of the lettering should be the same, at which time a discussion ensued. Mr. Fodera said his understanding is that when there is directory sign on top of a pole, the size of all the tenants signage must be the same. It doesn't say anything about the lettering. The code states that the type lettering and colors used must be the same on the directory sign. Mr. Jacobson asked if there would be a problem if New York Sports Clubs were slightly larger, as long as the totality of the directory looked very good. Mr. Spagnola said he would agree. Ms. Washington said it would depend what it looked like. She said the applicant can be good neighbors and figure out a way to adhere to the letter of the law. A discussion ensued on the layout of the signage, and that it should be handled in a low key way to be more elegant. Mr. Spagnola said that the applicant knows where the Board is headed. If it's going to be there, let's make it look pretty. That is why it's there. It's giving a validity to this as a shopping center. It is not meant to be read from a great distance. It is meant to be a list and compliment the building. Mr. Jacobson said the Board will leave this in Mr. Fodera's hands. Mr. Fodera said he has a good idea what the Board wants. Mr. Jacobson said he would like New York Sports Clubs to come back to the next meeting. However, it is important that Board receive the requested information before the next meeting date, so it can be distributed to the Board when the packets go out and reviewed before that meeting. Mr. Fodera asked if there is a time schedule for that. Mr. Jacobson said as long as it is received as stated above. Mr. Fodera said the submission will include two applications New York Sports Club, one for the cleaner and one for the other store. He also said that the other tenants need to be contacted to coordinate it. Mr. Immerman said he hopes the other stores will also use individual pin mounted letters. Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 7 Mr. Fodera said they may not be illuminated and asked if that mattered, as long as they match. Mr. Jacobson said the Board would like to have real consistency. If they are all pin mounted letters that will be fine. Consistency is the important issue. Ms. Washington asked if they all had to be the same typeface. Mr. Jacobson said no. Mr. Spagnola said if they are illuminated, they should all be illuminated the same way. Ms. Commender brought up the setback area of the shopping center and asked if there is any way that can be cleaned up, as it is a mess; i.e. there are picnic tables, cardboard boxes, damaged chain link fence, and a ramp that has plywood on top of it. Mr. Fodera said he will speak to the property owner about it. Mr. Jacobson said he also looked at that today, and thinks it needs to be policed. The liquor store has a lot of empty cartons sitting out back. There is a screened fence there, and assumes all the trash is supposed to be behind it, and it isn't. That is important. Mr. Fodera said they all share that lot. A discussion ensued regarding the damaged fence and the need for repair. Mr. Carpaneto said he will send someone to that location to investigate. Mr. Jacobson said this application will be held over to the next meeting. Mr. Fodera asked when the next meeting date will be. Mr. Jacobson said it is the third Thursday of the month. Mr. Carpaneto said he will give Mr. Fodera a call, but asks if he is not going to be able to attend to let him know. OTHER BUSINESS Mr.Jacobson then discussed the fabric samples with Mr. Carpaneto that were circulated amongst the Board members regarding Country Curtains and asked how to proceed. There are some issues about the color, etc. The consensus of the group seems to be that the middle blue is the best choice with respect to what Blockbuster would ultimately agree with. Mr. Carpaneto said he will send a letter to the owner of the building. A discussion ensued regarding the color chosen and the fact that the Board wants the building awning to be darker later. Mr. Spagnola asked Mr. Carpaneto's advise. Mr. Carpaneto said if an application is made to the Board, at that time it will be subject to the Board's approval. Mr. Spagnola asked if they would have to come before the Board if they replace the awning and make no changes. Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 8 Ms. Washington said it was created outside of the purview of the Board. Mr. Jacobson said he had a discussion with Mr. Carpaneto and it was his feeling that Blockbuster's awning isn't in bad shape. The Board can't count on Blockbuster coming back in one or two years. It may be five or more years. The Board has to decide if it is alright for the next five or six years. Mr. Carpaneto said the awning was done without the benefit of the Board's review, and asked if that would make it nonconforming. Ms. Washington said it depends, because it is an awning within their property line. It is a strange issue as it is not really a sign, it is part of their building. Mr. Immerman said Blockbuster was never considered. Ms. Washington said even the way the Sign Ordinance is written and the way that particular building is constructed, she is not sure if the Board can make them take the awning off. Mr. Immerman said he is not sure what point is being made. Ms. Washington said one of the choices is the awning is on an as-of-right piece of the building and that they don't have to come before the Board for that issue. Mr. Immerman asked if Ms. Washington means if they need to replace the covering on it, it can just be done without asking. Ms. Washington said it doesn't really even qualify as a sign. Mr. Carpaneto said that the lettering is too large. On an awning one can only have 6 in. lettering. A reference was made to Country Curtains, at which time Mr. Carpaneto said a variance was granted to them. Ms. Washington asked if Blockbuster Video can be ticketed for having their awning out of conformance and if they have to come before the Board because the lettering is too large. Mr. Carpaneto said he will discuss that issue with counsel. Mr. Spagnola said it should be looked into, as it would be so much better if it can be improved. Ms. Washington said she would rather have a way to leave the building navy, rather than bow to Blockbuster, and then have the canopy be blue again in the future. Mr. Carpaneto said Marilyn Hansen came in representing County Curtains, and said in a town in Long Island Blockbuster Video has a green and white canopy. Mr. Jacobson asked if the Board agrees that the navy is better than the middle blue, regardless of the Blockbuster color. Ms. Washington said if there was nothing there, she would choose between the green and the navy and would never consider the medium blue if there was no other tenant in the building. A discussion ensued regarding this issue, with the all Board members preferring the navy. Mr. Carpaneto said he will look into the conforming aspects. Board of Architectural Review March 18, 1999 Page 9 A discussion ensued regarding the shape of the awning, making the color better and getting rid of the internal illumination. Mr. Jacobson asked Mr. Carpaneto to communicate to Country Curtains that the color chosen is the navy, and said they will be pleased. Mr. Jacobson asked if there was any other business. Ms. Commender asked that her fax number be added on the Board list, which is the same number as her telephone number. Mr.Jacobson said that he read through the Sign Ordinance and it was a very good refresher. He suggested to those members who have been on the Board for a long time that it might be worth reading again. NEXT MEETING The next meeting of the BAR will be held on April 15, 1998. ADJOURNMENT Upon a motion duly made by Mr. Immerman and seconded, the meeting was unanimously adjourned at 9:20 p.m. Marguerite Roma, ecording Secretary